Fort Severn Freighter Canoe Restoration Project

WoodNCanvas

LOVES Wooden Canoes
I've posted about an upcoming project....that a group of wood canoe builders (including Pam Wedd and John Hupfield) have been working together to set up a restoration project of several Freighter canoes in Fort Severn First Nation....this will involve a month long workshop for band members in February/March....to teach them the methods involved in restoration and repair of these workhorses of the North....so they continue on their own on the rest of the Freighters....and those from nearby communities.....a follow-up month is planned later on to see progress....one of the canoes we'll be working on is pictured....everything we need to work with has to be trucked in by ice road....

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These Freighters are workhorses....meant to be used....and subject to rough use at that....

As I mentioned in another post under Wood & Canvas, one of the things we are debating over is the type of covering for the canoes....to fibreglas or to canvas....

Bill Miller was most gracious to supply a wealth of info on fibreglassing....and provided some great insights into its use....

But we had some concerns over fibreglas vs. canvas....one, that we just prefer canvas....two, that fibreglas on a wood hull can be difficult to remove for future restoration, especially if one uses epoxy resin in fibreglassing instead of polyester....three, that interior wood such as planking will get wet, and swell; as the planks absorb moisture they expand; as they expand they move and come in contact with the other planking next to them; in a rigid hull like one fiberglassed there is little or no room for such movement, possibly resulting in cracks; canvas permits more 'flexibility' of the hull....

So whether fibreglass or canvas, we needed to create the most durable covering....if we used canvas, then we needed to possibly use an alternative filler....like an epoxy filler....

There was discussion on epoxy filler in other threads here....we met with Dick Persson....and Dick kindly provided more details on his use of and approach with WEST epoxy....personally I really love the finish on his canoe done with the WEST filler....

But we found out that the company responsible for building the canoes, Nor-West Canoes, was using an epoxy as filler from the same Quebec company, Tri-Tex (that also produces the EAST epoxy system)....although they were using a different formula from that of EAST system....so we will be trying that out (we have been able to get small enough batches of this epoxy finally, after it seemed that we might only be able to get 55 gal. drums of their product....for each of two different resins....and for one hardener)....

We will also be trying an epoxy manufactured in New York by Delta, apparently specifically made for marine use....

We will be trying out each of these epoxies as filler....and comparing results before the final decision of which to go with....

We have had to go with a lighter weight canvas than what Nor-West uses....they use #4 canvas....partly because of the availability of #4....but also that a lighter canvas is much easier to work with....to add to the strength of the canvas covering (in addition to the epoxy filler), we will be adding a fiberglass strip to the harder wear areas of the hull (this will be on top of the canvas)....

From Nor-West Canoe website, http://www.nor-west.ca/html/canoe/canot_norwest_en.htm, comes this description of the canoes we’ll be working on:

Norwest 20′
Length: 20 feet
Beam: 52 inches
Depth: 20 inches
Weight: 325 pounds
Capacity: 2540 pounds
Recommended motor: 15 to 30HP
Persons: 5

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The last photo is one of the actual canoes we'll be working on....

I'll be posting here on the progress of this project....
 
to add to the strength of the canvas covering (in addition to the epoxy filler), we will be adding a fiberglass strip to the harder wear areas of the hull (this will be on top of the canvas)....

Has anybody actually tried this to see how well it holds up? It sounds like a potential formula for disaster to me, and given the drastic difference in modulus of elasticity between canvas and fiberglass, the "strength" that it adds will likely be minimal at best - at least until it delaminates or fractures.
 
Mike Elliott of Kettle River Canoes wrote about using Kevlar on top of canvas as he described in Alternative Bottom Protection for a Wood-Canvas Canoe, http://canoeguybc.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/alternative-bottom-protection-for-a-wood-canvas-canoe/:

Recently, a client asked me to restore his two wood-canvas canoes. They had been well used (32 broken ribs between them) and he plans to use them a lot in the future. He wanted extra protection for the bottom without installing a traditional “shoe” keel – a strip of ash 2-3/8” (6 cm) wide and 3/8” (1 cm) thick. He suggested using a panel of Kevlar on the bottom of each canoe. I agreed to give it a try.

I prepared the canoes in the usual manner with a regular silica- and oil-based filler to waterproof the new canvas coverings. After the usual four week drying time, I sanded the filler smooth with 220-grit sandpaper. I cut a panel of Kevlar about 9” (23 cm) wide and made it long enough to cover the stems just past the curve at the ends. I used West System® Epoxy but there are several other similar products available.

It took the better part of the day to apply three coats of epoxy on the Kevlar. The first coat saturates the fabric, the second coat fills the weave and the final coat creates a smooth surface. Between the first and second coats, the Kevlar was cut at the ends and lapped over the stems to make the fabric form to the curve at the stems.

The epoxy binds the Kevlar to the filled canvas but does not soak through the canvas. This is an important point. Since the epoxy does not soak through the canvas, it does not glue the canvas to the wooden hull. As a result, it is still a completely repairable wood-canvas canoe. The only change is a stiffer and more durable bottom panel.

I was a little wary about sanding the epoxy once it had cured. I wanted to remove drips of epoxy and smooth out the edges of the Kevlar without damaging the rest of the filled canvas. I used 80-grit sandpaper and used a light touch. I opted for a few epoxy drips remaining on the filled canvas rather than running the risk of sanding right through. The results are not picture perfect and the Kevlar edges are still visible, but the surface is smooth and ready for paint.

After installing the brass stem-bands, four coats of alkyd enamel (thinned 12% with paint thinner) were applied in the usual manner.

I am pleased with the results, as is the client. He now has canoes that can stand-up to a little more abuse than the traditional covering. Still, I don’t think the added protection is a license for wanton abuse of the canoe.


So something like this has been done before....

We are using epoxy filler in the canvas first....so I'm not sure that there will be that drastic a difference in elasticity between canvas and fiberglass.....and there should be added strength....nor should it delaminate or fracture.
 
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so I'm not sure that there will be that drastic a difference in elasticity between canvas and fiberglass

Only if you stress it. Oops. Mixing layers of dissimilar materials has a pretty bad historical track record, even in situations where their application is far more similar than your plan. Find an old Phoenix kayak some time to look at. They tried mixing a layer of nylon cloth in with layers of fiberglass cloth in order to improve the tear strength of the laminate. It did, but tended to delaminate like crazy on impact. With clear gelcoat, these spots were plainly visible and the owners who had bought the boats were usually pretty pissed about it. I could possibly see a few small pieces of Kevlar felt to protect high abrasion areas (though any Kevlar tends to fuzz and can be difficult to clean up neatly at repair time). Fiberglass wears away cleanly from abrasion, but is drastically less abrasion resistant than Kevlar. My gut tells me that if you want a tough canvas-covered canoe, your best bet is probably to use tough canvas.
 
Epoxy works as a filler if the weave is not too coarse and you are able to ensure there is no adherence the underlying planking. I would expect adding a layer of glassfibre and epoxy would dramatically increase the weight without doing much for strength. The suspense over delamination would be an extra. I posted a routine for using multiple layers of dacron and epoxy filler to create a light, very strong, and (more) durable cover a number of years ago (and I was still able to find it again). Using epoxy on canvas will mean a lot of epoxy, or else a lot of faring compound. My freighters (there are some picts around) 23ft, 26" deep and 44"at the stem, weight in at 230lbs for the tapered stern and 270lb for the full transom.
peter
 
Epoxy works as a filler if the weave is not too coarse and you are able to ensure there is no adherence the underlying planking. I would expect adding a layer of glassfibre and epoxy would dramatically increase the weight without doing much for strength. The suspense over delamination would be an extra. I posted a routine for using multiple layers of dacron and epoxy filler to create a light, very strong, and (more) durable cover a number of years ago (and I was still able to find it again). Using epoxy on canvas will mean a lot of epoxy, or else a lot of faring compound. My freighters (there are some picts around) 23ft, 26" deep and 44"at the stem, weight in at 230lbs for the tapered stern and 270lb for the full transom.
peter

Certainly appreciate the feedback....

Nor-West Canoes who built Freighters use epoxy filler on canvas....there are several builders who have used various epoxy fillers on canvas....taking steps to see that epoxy doesn't cause canvas to adhere to wood....

As a group we have been in contact with several canoe builders, including various prominent builders (as mentioned in original post)....as well within the group are some very well known builders....the technique we're undertaking has been considered very carefully....and will be tested out before actual application....the comments made here certainly raise concerns we have had....and are good reminders of various issues involved in such a process....

Weight is not a big issue (re:epoxy filler/fiberglass) as these Freighters are workhorses....meant to be used....and often roughly....besides original weight was over 300 lbs....

The fiberglass will only be used in the very bottom of the hull....not the complete hull....mostly around keel line....

Having canvas as covering - main covering - allows for future restortation....and more ease doing so....

Epoxy filler should allow for stronger canvas covering than would traditional oil based filler....
 
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Just to update on Fort Severn canoe project....we're finally heading up North next week....tools and supplies are on their way to Manitoba and from there heading to Fort Severn via ice road....will be up there for full month....first setting up shop....then working with band members to restore Freighter canoes....hoping to get 3 or 4 done while up there....then will be back for another month to follow up later in summer....going up with John Hupfield....we will be posting reports periodically here on WCHA forum....as well as through link on Canadian Canoe Museum website; plan is to get local youth to videotape work in progress....also hope to have an article in Wooden Canoe when project is finished....
 
Dave
I have just found this very interesting thread. I am new to this site but not new to wood canoes, especially the style you are referring to here. This little fishing village of Grand Lake Stream ME where I live is famous for what we call A Grand laker. There 20' square stern, 43" beam, rib and plank cedar Canoes built by individuals Mostly guides and used to guide fisherman from. There has been hundreds of them built here for the last 100 years. I am one of the few builders left here. I also spend allot of time rebuilding or restoring them. Your questions about glassing or canvassing i would like to put my 2 cents worth in on. After the local builders returned from world war 2 they started glassing there canoes and it was like they had reinvented the wheel. No more patching canvas no more worrying about scrapping rocks They could trailer there canoes from lake to lake without the bunks wherein through the bottom's . Most of these canoes would be used 60 to 100 days a year with the guide and 2 fisherman and not used as a show peace but as a tool so they got abused. I have done a few canvas with the epoxy filler (west system) It did a great job easy to do real nice finish. ( I applied it with bondo squeegees to force it into the cloth ) The problem i had was not being able to get treated canvas 6'wide at the time. The canvas rotted from the wood side out . I use west system epoxy with 2 layers of 8 oz fiberglass cloth and it works great. I have restored canoes that where glassed 40 and 50 years ago and the glass just needed sanding and paint. Good luck on your trip wish I could go with you.
Dale Tobey

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Pioneered, not Engineered

Nor-West Canoes who built Freighters use epoxy filler on canvas....
There are many techno examples of things working perfectly well in practice that theoretically "shouldn't" - and vice versa.
It sounds like there is already lots of proof that this works under the right circumstances. Not so many years ago I wouldn't have believed that, but success is enough proof for me. I've also seen instances where it didn't work. It would be nice to know which details were important to success, and I hope this project helps define "the right circumstances" for other people here. I am looking forward to your results.

Larry Westlake
 
Dale;
Nice Grand Lakers.
The one in your first pic doesn't seem to have a side spray-knocker/rub rail, or is it just not visible in the photo?
At about what power does a spray-knocker become necessary for these boats?

Do you take any measures to prevent your epoxy/fiberglass and epoxy/canvas coverings from bonding to the wood hull?
Do you mind sharing the epoxy mix that you use for the canvas filler? I assume it is quite thick if you have to force it into the weave.

Larry Westlake
 
Rob Stevens: Originally Posted by WoodNCanvas ....taking steps to see that epoxy doesn't cause canvas to adhere to wood.... Such as said:
Lots of varnish and a release agent likely..;)

Andre is correct...using release agent....as well as varnish....
 
The border guard who lets you go after looking in your trunk? You know, the stuff they coat molds with before gelcote goes in, some witches brew of chemicals i forget the formulation for. Where's Bradshaw when you need him??
 
Andre you win my gratitude for trying to explain what a release agent is....I'm sure Dick could explain it more....
 
I used a layer of saran wrap, attached at the edges with scotch tape. It sounds un-natural and somewhat criminal, and I too resisted its use for several builds. The home built aircraft guys persuaded me to use it. It works as a barrier to adherence, its non toxic, invisible, and simple to apply, and does not affect the fabric or wood in any way. It might be worth taking a few rolls with you, in case you want a fall back routine for the non adherence part.
 
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