Cecofil & Latex Filler method

[Ric Altfather]

Hey Gil,

I have never seen Bakkor lagging adhesive but the Vamasco brand has 2% ethylene glycol in it's composition. I believe Dave Carnell wrote a paper on the use of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) as a preservative...I wonder if you could use regular canvas with that in mind?

Just a thought,

Ric

 

[Steve Ambrose]

Mike/Dan, how has the Cecofill held up as compared to the traditional oil-based filler? I've been contemplating trying it and now have about forced myself into it to get a boat done for Santa.

 

[MikeCav]

Steve,
The boat I used the Cecofil method on was not my own, I was doing it for someone else, but I saw the boat this summer and it still looked great. The owner reported no problems with leaking or paint blisters. Full disclosure, though. This is a very lightly used boat on a small lake. It's not a beater or even one that gets regular use.

The fact that Dan M recommends this technique was a good endorsement.

 

[Dan Miller]

And I recommend it because I learned it from the Canoe Guru Chris Merigold. I've used the technique on a number of canoes, and while I was not able to keep any for very long, I have not had any complaints so far.... and will use it again when opportunity next arises.

Dan

 

[Steve Ambrose]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I'll give Tom a call - I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[Tom Spicer]

filler

Steve, Please keep us posted. I am also thinking of trying this and would value your opinion. Tom

 

[Fritz Koenig]

filler

I used Stewart Systems Ekofil last spring over canvas. I have used the boat on river trips about twice a month since May. It has held up very well. I have scratched the paint up a bit on rocks and sand but it is just the paint. I did get bubbles after washing the boat out several weeks after I painted it but they dissapeared in a couple days. I assume, like another author, that the bubbles were from water trapped between the planking and the canvas.

Good luck
Fritz

 

[Steve Ambrose]

Steve, Please keep us posted. I am also thinking of trying this and would value your opinion. Tom

Couple of notes:

Tom McKenzie no longer sells the Ekofill because he lost his discount with Stewart so I bought direct. Tom told me it would take 2-3 quarts on canvas to fill a 15' boat and he was right. I used straight Ekofill instead of the Ekofill followed by the latex/spackle combination.

Ekofill goes on much easier than traditional filler although I didn't gain any real time savings in the labor due to the higher number of coats (I actually lost track or gave up counting but it was probably 8-9). Maybe I wasn't applying it heavy enough but the manufacturer recommends light coats to build up to the desired fill. I never got there. The Ekofill never quite matched the results of traditional filler - I could still see slight texture but as I said I gave up and went to primer to finish the fill. It worked out fine and if what I peeled out of the bottom of my roller tray is any indication, Ekofill is tough stuff! Another caution regarding Ekofill's lack of build-up compared to traditional filler - it doesn't cover the tacks and canvas edge on the stems as well either. With Rollin's filler I've been able to build up and smooth the stems so the tacks and canvas edge almost disappear. The stem bands will cover what the Ekofill didn't but need to make sure you're lined up good!

Two reasons I tried the Ekofill: weight savings and time savings. Labor was a wash if not more involved than traditional filler but I went from filler to paint in two weeks. It feels lighter but I'll post a comparison once I get a chance to weigh it against its cousins.

I bought a gallon of the Ekofill because it was cheaper than buying 3 quarts. There's about 1/3 of a gallon left which Tom tells me should be enough to fill a boat covered in Ceconite (dacron) which will be an experiment for 2011

 

[Tom Spicer]

Cecofil & latex

Thanks Steve. I think I will stay with the tried and true method. You saved me the anguish of wondering how it was going to workout. Tom

 

[Dan Miller]

Had you not skipped the primer/spackle step you would have had better results. This method works quite well when done properly...

Dan

 

[Dave Osborn]

I offer both traditional filler and the Ekofill process to my customers.
I save 7-8 pounds on a Ekofill and primer fill job.
In talking with others about this process I think they assume that the Ekofill is the filler. While it may fill and build up on dacron, it does not actually fill the whole weave of the much more coarse canvas. That is where the spackle and primer mix comes in.
When I do this method, I do it slightly different than the way Mike describes it at the beginning of the thread. I use 3 coats of Ekofill, three coats of primer/spackle, and two coats of a Hi-Build oil primer prior to marine enamel..I find that I use fewer coats of marine enamel, because the surface is sanded and faired better after the primers than after traditional filler
The result is a tough, light, smooth surface.

 

[Tom Spicer]

Ekofill

Thanks Dan And Dave for the input. I missed the fact that Steve did not use the spackling procedure. As if you can't tell I'm a newbie and will be covering my first canoe in the spring on what appears to be an undocumented (no numbers no diamond head bolts) 17ft. Octa. What Dave decribes sounds like something what I would be willing to try. Thanks, Tom

 

[Andy Hutyera]

Mike,

Missed you at the Assembly.
I've gotten rather discouraged about the use of Dacron. I've always thought that one of the big advantages of Dacron was the weight savings resulting from not using traditional filler. My experience with Dacron leads me to believe that it's lack of toughness makes for a canoe that you have to use rather carefully. Your approach sounds like a great compromise between traditional filler and Dacron. I'm inclined to remove one of my Dacron covers and try your method.

Thanks to both you and Dan for taking the time to put this all together!

 

[Dave Osborn]

I may be talking out of school on dacron because I've never used it, but one of the other advantages is its mildew resistance. The draw back to dacron that I see is that it accentuates all of the tack heads, hammer blossoms, and plank seams. The thicker canvas "softens" the effect of those anomlies making them less noticable and more aesthetically pleasing to my eye. That is important to me. However, on a new, tight, fair hull, dacron may be the best choice.
Use of the ekofill on canvas leaves the mildew question, unless you are using Rollin's treated canvas or find some way to treat the canvas prior to filling. (anybody know of a treatment?)
Although I believe ekofill has biocide in it, I always add some. I also add it to the primer mix. One other tip I can give on Ekofil is to use it very liberally on the first coat, so as to soak it as deep as possible into the canvas. Don't try to stretch it. It dries quickly, so you need to be fast and heavy with the first coat.
I haven't tried it, but have considered thinning it with distilled water to make it soak in better and possibly slowing the dry time on the first coat. Subsequent coats will not "soak in", as the first coat becomes a barrier.
Like Dan M. and Cavy, I have not had any issues with my own ekofill canoes or with customer canoes...(Knocking on wood!)

 

[Lastkozak]

Hi, I am redoing the canvas on an old Langford I fixed up in 2015. Initially I used the latex Mastic method recommended by Orca. It was fast, weight about the same, smooth finish, but latex is flexible. Every rock, twig, and anything else in the river nicked it, grabbed it, and yanked it, until it was full of holes and rips. I suspect a good filler for BC when ocean water is all you are paddling, but not for Ontario rivers.

I do wish to keep this old canoe lighter than traditionally. I even have decided my traditional brass and bronze screws have to go. (If I could get titanium I would, but will have to settle on Stainless Steel; lighter and strong and won't stain the wood work).

I intend to use No 12 canvas this time, and am curious about the Ekofill technique? It has been years since these above posts were published, and I am curious, how hard is the surface using Ekofill? with or without the Spackle primer method?

PS My Avatar is the Langford from 2015.

Thanks for any info!

Lastkozak

 

[Worth Gretter]

Chris Merigold. Mix 50-50 Latex EXTERIOR primer and LIGHTWEIGHT premixed spackling

It seems Lastkozak tried to revive this thread a year ago but got no responses. I'm going to try again.

My plan was to cover my canoe with Dacron to keep the weight down, but I have concluded that the hull is too rough and I am not going to be able to get it smooth enough for Dacron.

So it's back to canvas. Still trying to keep the weight down, so I found this old thread. It ended with questions about the durability of the Ekofill and spackle combination when applied to canvas. Can anyone weigh in on this?

Thanks!

Worth

 

[Dave Osborn]

I had good success with this process. I still use a variation of this method due to the high cost of Ekofil. I now use Sherlastic elastomeric paint as the filler in place of Ekofil. I use Petit EZPrime in place of the primer/spackle, but I could really just as well have stuck with the spackle. Can’t even remember why I switched to the Petit primer now.
The nice thing about this process is that there is virtually no cure time like traditional filler. 24-48 hours of dry time on the primer will give you a great fairable coating to sand. I believe that it expands and contracts with the canoe better than traditional filler. I never had a paint failure with it.

 

[Worth Gretter]

Dave, thanks for the good info.
One question: how many coats of each are you doing, when you use Sherlastic and EZPrime?

 

[chris pearson]

This is very interesting stuff! I like how everyone continues to push the envelope finding a better way. My question is this, does Rollin and Jerry fool around with different fillers? If not, why stay with the “old traditional”? After all of these years of these rag boats being around, why do some stick with tradition?

 

[MGC]

Jerry and Rollin should speak for themselves but I tend to watch the video feed from Rollins shop and I have a canoe that came from his shop that has had pretty heavy use. Here are a few observations. Rollin canvases a lot of canoes and boats. There's a new one seemingly every few days. The filler he puts on (his own recipe and product) goes on really well and cures quickly enough that a canoe can be car topped in less than a week. The recipe is extremely tough and holds up to snags and bangs against rocks and slides over sharp granite rock as you might find in a bony Maine river. It's what he has on his own personal canoes and as many of us know, he uses his canoes.
From where I sit, his filler is pretty much a sure thing.
Doing as many canoes as he does and most of them for paying clients, experimenting with some kind of Molotov cocktail is probably not high on his list of risks to take. If he misses a beat with a boat, there goes the schedule. From my perspective, I'd rather stay with tried and true.
What has always been missing for me to give these alternative recipes a try is a definitive comparison between how well it holds up in hard use vs. traditional recipes. That it holds paint well, looks good, dries quickly is great to know, but when I slide it over a jagged and sharp piece of granite, what happens? Is there enough "toughness" to keep the canvas from getting sliced through? Silica give the filler a necessary hardness that I would not want to eliminate.