Some cheap questions and outside of the box ideas

[ElectricSquid]

Some duh questions and an outside of the box idea

I'm trying to nail down exactly how I'm going to go about building our canoe.

A few things are certain:
1) it needs to be built for as little as possible (hey, times are tough)
2) I'll be using kiln dried Western Red Cedar (scrap from work, it's what I have, see #1)



I face one issue no matter what style of build I do, the scrap pieces of cedar I can get range in length from 8' to 10' long. I've been reading everywhere on the site about 16' and 18' long strips, but I can't find anything about splicing strips to make up the hull. Um, except the new topic about the guy who made a canoe out of used chopsticks Which just shows me it is possible.
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=3145

Any suggestions on using more than one strip in a row? Splicing strips?
I know to stager the joints well.

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Next up is, what's the ideal thickness of a strip for an all wood canoe? What's the thinnest you would use?
... and same question, but for a stripper (wood fiberglass), what's the ideal and thinnest thicknesses to use?

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... and here's the weird idea.

Imagine with me for a moment, what if I was to build a 16-17ft long x 30in wide, all wood canoe with the minimum thickness cedar strips and normal thickness ribs (laminated ribs, I'll get to that one later)

After the outer hull strips are all in place, I could spray Great Stuff closed cell foam in between the ribs till it fills the void between them. Wait for the foam to harden, then cut it down to be flush with the inner most edge of the ribs. This is basically the same method we use to insulate and vapor barrier the refrigerated wine cellars I build at my day job.)

One thing I can tell you is that having foam filling the gap between two materials makes for one solid piece or wall. This canoe build idea uses that for all it's worth. (... and it floats)

So back to the build, after the foam is shaped, I'll run thin cedar strips on the inside of the hull (just like the outside). They would be glued to the ribs and the foam, to make the hull solid as a rock.

A couple advantages I can see with this idea are:
The use of less thwarts, more like the way a stripper is designed due to the strength of the fiberglass.
It wouldn't be too terribly heavy due to being able to use thin strips, basically using a half of each strip on each side if the foam, if you can imagine that.
The thinner strips would be a lot easier than full thickness kiln dried strips.
FOAM FLOATS

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Oh, and I almost forgot, I'm not going to be able to get ribs to bend the way they need to with the material I have available, so I'm looking toward maybe laminating them up instead. Again, I did site searches on laminated ribs, but didn't find anything (yet)



So, thanks for reading all the way through that. What are your professional opinions?

 

[Dan Lindberg]

ES,

Well it's an interesting idea.

I'm not a pro so take it FWIW, I have built 3 strippers and restored 4 W/C however.

I'm trying to decide figure out just what you want when you are done.

Usually the benifits of W/C or All Wood are repairablity, ie, any piece can be removed and replaced without too much effort, where as Strippers and Glued together are more rigid, they are harder to repair, as least when it comes to replacing damaged wood.

There are some guys here that build what looks like a W/C except they glue (epoxy?) the planking to the ribs, and I can't remember what they cover it with, either dacron or flberglass.

So my delema is that you're talking all wood but getting a craft like a stripper.

But to the details, how are you going to keep the water out of the wood and foam, and how will it dry when it gets wet? One of the problems with strippers is when the glass/resin layer is broken, water soaks into the wood, causing rot and delamination.

Your basically making a stripper that has a composite core of alternating wood and foam, and making the outer skins of wood. If you're going to do that, why not just make a cold formed laminated boat, ie, "plywood". (this is an established construction method, checkout the Wooden Boat site/BB).

As to sizes, the "standard" stripper layup is 1/4 thick strips with 6 oz glass in and out. Common variations are 3/16 strips with multiple layers of thinner glass, and there is a guy who builds with 1/8 strips, but he uses more layers of glass.

The standard W/C is 5/16 x 2 1/4 ribs (white cedar) with 5/32 red or white cedar planking.

How these would relate to what you're talking about I don't know.

You might explore some of the Wooden Boat building methods, as that seems a bit closer to what your thinking about.

BTW, the cheepest way to get a canoe, when you count your time, is to just buy one, you should be able to find a used one for no more then $300, not a lot when you consider the hours it will take to build a canoe.

Dan

 

[Bill Mackey]

The unanswered question????

How much canoeing are you going to do? A few week ends a year (maybe??) or are you going to go into it as many of us have as a forever wilderness experience. If you are in the weekend catagory, go to Sam's Club and buy their $400 canoe and save yourself a lot of headaches, heartaches, cut fingers, out of control budgets, not to mention the bad attitude you share with people around you when something goes wrong with the building process.
Remember: Canoeing is an activity that happens on the water, not in the shop. My recommendation for a beginner is spend time on the water first, you may find that you don't like the process of learning how to paddle ,before you decide to spend all that time building.

 

[Bill Mackey]

Forgot this advice

If you decide to build your own canoe be aware that you well never build just one. My experience is that you will either not finish the first or you will have to build at least three. If the first one is a success, you will look at it and say to yourself, "now that I have done it I can do it much better the next time" when the second is completed you will say "now I know how to build the perfect canoe". By that time you are hooked, it is in you blood, and there is no known cure for the builders bug. The only known cure is to try to teach a couple of 12 to 14 year olds how to do it. Its not a cure it just helps reduce the effects of the addiction.

 

[ElectricSquid]

Reply to Dan and Bill

Thanks for the great replies.
I'll comment in order.

I'm trying to decide, figure out just what you want when you are done

I'm going to build us (my wife and I) a way to get out on the water. We can not afford to buy a canoe, but just like everything else I can't afford, I build it myself. I'll touch on that in a bit.

As far as the exact canoe design, I know what shape I'm looking for, but the way I put it together is up in the air. I'm governed by the material I have handy, but time is no issue at all.

As far as the function, I'm going for stable and shallow draft. There are a lot of places near here that are only accessable by a shallow boat with no motor. Slow moving rivers, parts of Tampa Bay (Weedon Island), and even the Everglades, which if you don't have an airboat or canoe, then forget it, you're limited to the main channel and risk getting stranded if you wander.

Usually the benefits of W/C or All Wood are repairablity, ie, any piece can be removed and replaced without too much effort, where as Strippers and Glued together are more rigid, they are harder to repair, as least when it comes to replacing damaged wood.

Canvas is out. I'm not fond of that design.

Strippers was the direction I was leaning, but with what you said about the fiberglass flaw, that's out too. Along with my Hybrid wood foam wood design above that was going to use the fiberglass as the sealant.

That leaves All Wood and Glued together, which I thought were the same thing till I read your reply. If there is a difference, how is an All-wood held together? That sounds like the way to go for me.

Repairability is EVERYTHING. I'd love to be able to just knock out the bad board, slap in the new on, and off we go. Though it could never be that easy could it?

...and what do you use as a sealant on an All-Wood design?

BTW, the cheepest way to get a canoe, when you count your time, is to just buy one, you should ...

I NEVER calculate the monetary value of the time I spend on a project, since it's my free time. I enjoy building stuff for us. Oh, and the countless hours I spend researching how to do it in the first place is priceless. What I'm doing right now is half the fun of it, figuring out how to do it.

If you are in the weekend category, go to Sam's Club and buy their $400 canoe and save yourself a lot of ...

Bill, you come across a little strong at first, but I'm sure the weak of heart need that to scare them off from the half built canoe that'll be rotting in their garage for years. Good advice, just go buy one.

But... I'm not that guy.

How much canoing are you going to do? A few week ends a year (maybe??) or are you going to go into it as many of us have as a forever wilderness experience.

See, the problem here is I've been so caught up in surviving in this friggin concrete jungle for the last 15 years that I've almost totally lost my younger years of aimlessly wandering in the woods for days, sometimes even weeks on end.

I have the "forever wilderness experience" in me, I'm trying to get myself back there, and to finally be able to share it with my wife.

a lot of headaches, heartaches, cut fingers, out of control budgets, not to mention the bad attitude you share with people around you when something goes wrong with the building process.

LOL, that's a regular day at work A day without ALL of those means I'm either horribly sick, or dead.

If you decide to build your own canoe be aware that you well never build just one. My experience is that you will either not finish the first or you will have to build at least three. If the first one is a success, you will look at it and say to yourself, "now that I have done it I can do it much better the next time" when the second is completed you will say "now I know how to build the perfect canoe". By that time you are hooked, it is in you blood, and there is no known cure for the builders bug. The only known cure is to try to teach a couple of 12 to 14 year olds how to do it. Its not a cure it just helps reduce the effects of the addiction.

To that whole reply... EXACTLY!! You nailed it. But the problem with me is I'm like that with everything.






When we can't afford it, and I want it anyway, I build myself . It's my way of having what I want

Here's a pic below that shows the 4x4 I can't afford. It is also an ongoing project. Most of the work on it is custom, built and designed by me using the combined knowledge on the "net" and my own skill at problem solving. And get this, as of 2 years ago, I didn't know how to change a spark plug. This should show the drive I have to do it myself. There are many other projects around the yard and house I've tackled in just the past year as well.

A canoe is next

I will custom design and build our canoe, and we will like it (said in an Arnold voice)

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Thank you both for such good replies. I enjoyed responding to them

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[Dan Lindberg]

ES,

$$ - you probably have more in 1 tire and wheel then the cost of a canoe. (assuming you paid something close to what they are worth)

All-Wood - usually are nailed or tacked together, sometimes with a sealant in the joints and sometimes without, which then depends on the tightness of the joint to keep the water out. Being that all pieces are attached with mechanical fasteners, they are relatively removeable. They are also more fragal.

Glued to-gether - instead of mechanical fasteners, the pieces are glued, which also means they are much harder to take out again.

With any method that doesn't use some external re-enforcing layer (ie, fiberglass/resin), it will be somewhat fragle and need repairs.

If you're not 'hard-over" on the design, consider the 6-hour canoe or other stitched together flat panel designs. They are quick, cheep and reasonably durable.

As for cost, for a stripper, even with free wood, it will likely cost in the 200-300 range just for the glass and resin. Plus misc fasteners. I have about $850, 750 and 750 in the 3 strippers I built. This high end materials.

Building all wood might be a bit less, with free wood, but it will still cost 50-100. (even fasteners your have in the garage cost something when you got them.)

Generally folks don't build canoes to save money, though they usually get a better canoe for the money they spend,
ie,
100-300 for a used alum or plastic
200-600 to build a stripper
300-700 for a new plastic
400-1500 for a better used plastic or componsite canoe
1500-3000 for a new componsite, glass, kevlar or carbon
2500-4500 for a new wood/canvas or all wood(?)

or better yet, find somebody to will give you a old canoe.

Dan

 

[Kathryn Klos]

A book to inspire you...

In regard to all-wood canoes, you might find "Rushton and His Times in American Canoeing" by Atwood Manley inspirational!

 

[Scot T]

I'm with Gil...Go For It!

But before you do have a look here and see if these might suit your needs. http://www.duck-trap.com/2002can.html

I know you will be using scrap from your work site but maybe a lapstrake will work. You seem like a very creative guy...why follow the crowd? Fit those pieces together and make useable boards!

I've built a couple strippers and cannot say that I'm convinced it is the best way to make a boat. There is a lot of work involved, sanding, cutting all those little stripa, sanding, tacking all those little strips to the form, sanding, glueing all those little strips together, sanding, scraping all the glue runs off, sanding, fiberglassing with epoxy (toxic stuff), sanding, scraping the epoxy level, sanding, laying the fiberglass and epoxy out inside the hull, swearing beyond insanity levels trying to get the bubbles out, sanding...hummm, what did I forget?...oh yeah, there is a lot of sanding involved. In fact, it seems like half the friggen boat becomes a pile of sanding dust! They aren't the most cost effective either.

Personally, I don't think strippers are worth the effort. Don't get me wrong, I love mine, it's beautiful to look at, paddles like a charm and gets me out on the water many, many times in a year. I'm glad I had the experience of making it and it's sister but I will never (NO NEVER!) do another.

 

[Bill Mackey]

Dan's last note

Did you ever go out and buy a special tool for a job and later when you were telling a friend about it they say something like: "why didn't you tell me I have one of those in the garage you could have had it". It has happened to all of us and I know of several times it has happened to me. So tell everyone you run into that you are looking for a used canoe. Spread the word far and wide and you may be suprised by what you find.

 

[ElectricSquid]

I'm with Gil...Go For It!

But before you do have a look here and see if these might suit your needs. http://www.duck-trap.com/2002can.html

I know you will be using scrap from your work site but maybe a lapstrake will work. You seem like a very creative guy...why follow the crowd? Fit those pieces together and make useable boards!

Now that's the spirit !!

I took a look at the pics on that site. A very interesting idea indeed.

 

[Jim Okkema]

This might be the boat for you.
http://www.bateau.com/freeplans.php
You'd have to come up with two sheets of 1/4" plywood. I'd think regular luan would suffice, rather than marine grade. If it seems too small for two people you could build another for your significant other. No better way to a woman's heart than to make a personal canoe for her. I'm sure many on this forum can attest to that.
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