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Has anyone seen this?

Discussion in 'Research and History' started by Al Newcomb, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Greetings,
    I'm in the process of purchasing a 16' Old Town Wood and Canvas Canoe 1928 vintage. This canoe has large mahogany decks with coaming, with a partial metal plate(maybe aluminum) on top of the decks under the brass bang plate. There are also small metal plates under the diamond bolt heads of the mahogany seats and thwarts. And finally there are these small metal plates under the heads of the keel screws in the interior floor.
    Is this a special order or fancy model or someone's handywork not wanting to replace the decks and getting carried away with all the small plate type washers?
    Any information would be sincerely appreciated.
    I will have a serial number shortly.
    Photos included.
    Thanks Ya'll,
    Big Al Newcomb
    Member #9073
     

    Attached Files:

  2. MGC

    MGC Scrapmaker

    Did someone also install small aluminum spacers under the diamond head bolts?
    It looks like someone has customized this canoe.
     
  3. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Hi Al--

    When restoring a canoe that has been worked on previously, you can decide which things to keep and which to eliminate... you don't have to take the canoe back to its original ship-date-appearance. An old canoe has history, and that history includes the different "looks" it has been given.

    Seems to me that someone thought the deck-plate might add strength... maybe it covers a damaged tip, or maybe someone thought a deco/Planet Mongo effect added to the canoe's appearance. But I'd speculate those little "spacers" under the diamond heads and keel screws were a simple fix for something you might want to fix another way... and see what's going on under the deck-plates.

    Nice canoe. When you get the serial number, we'll look it up.

    Kathy
     
  4. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks for the insight

    Thanks to MGC and Kathy for your information.
    The serial number for the above canoe is 10022 16.
    He also has another OT for sale as well. That serial number is 112703.
    If you have any info on both would be really helpful.
    Thanks in Advance,
    Big Al Newcomb
     
  5. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Was this done at manufacturing?

    When I saw all the small plates under the heads of the keel screws, I thought it may have been done at the time of manufacture. Since it looks like a very early model is this possible?
    Photo included of interior floor.
    Thanks Again,
    Al
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    sorry

    No, those plates are add-ons at some later date. You will likely find areas of damage that are being covered up. My canoe had roof flashing covering everything and installed by a 5th grader. Mabe younger.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks for the response

    Thanks Dave. It looks like I'm going to bring some tools with me and look under everything. The rest of the canoe looks so good with all the mahogany.
    Except for that red paint on the inside, yuk. I'm hoping they didn't strip it but painted over the original varnish. I hate to think of this ugly paint permeated into the wood. But I have to persue all possibilities then make a clear decision if I'm going to buy this or not. Thanks for the input.
    Cheers,
    Big Al
     
  8. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Old Town 10022 may not be this canoe-- I can try some other numbers, but the easiest way is to have the seller check both stems and compare.

    10022 is a 16 foot CS (common sense) grade Charles River model canoe, with closed spruce gunwales, short spruce decks, spruce thwarts and seat frames (in other words, it was "all spruced up"). It was shipped to Old Forge, New York, on February 16, 1909.

    This doesn't match the canoe in the pictures, which appears to have some mahogany trim, long decks (like an Otca), open gunwales, and diamond head bolts, which didn't appear on OT canoes until about 1920. But I'm not saying it can't be the 1909 canoe-- if it is, it morphed-- with somebody's help.

    Old Town 112703 is a 16 foot CS (common sense, or middle grade) Yankee model canoe finished June-July of 1933 with red Western cedar planking, open spruce gunwales, ash decks/thwarts/seat frames, and a keel. It was originally fire red, and was shipped July 13, 1933 to Devon, CT.

    If you aren't familiar with the Yankee, there is interesting information on this model in these forums archives, if you put "Yankee" into the search box above.

    The scans of these records are attached below-- click to get a larger image. This scan and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you and anyone else reading this will join or renew membership in the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.php to renew.

    It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.

    Kathy
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Seems unlikely anyone would have taken the time to strip the interior before painting-- you should be able to remove the paint and get the wooden interior glowing again.
     
  10. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    One step forward

    Kathy thanks for the build sheets which is good and bad news to me.
    I've included a photo of the deck plate confirming this is the same canoe that was shipped to C.E. French in Devon, CT
    On the other hand, the original canoe was described to me as a 1928 vintage.
    Could he have missed a 0 in the serial number making it 100022 ?? Just a thought seeing it would put it around that time period.
    Let me know what you find.
    And as always I am so moved by all you guys and all of your extensive knowledge and experience with these wonderful collectable canoes.
    You guys are the best.
    And Kathy I will serch the Yankee model to learn more about it.
    Cheers,
    Big Al
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    deck change

    that's a different deck than in the first set of pics. I think you've been sent photos from both canoes? the long deck canoe looks pretty good even if you imagine everything under the plates is bad. Condition dictates price and you can use the search function to research how prices goes. Also check ebay and the classifieds here.
     
  12. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    100022 is a 15 foot 50-pounder sent to Duluth in 1929... but that was a good guess. We should be able to find the right record-- the canoe appears to be in good condition, and the numbers should be readable. A digital picture can help make things clear even if the numbers are hard to read with the naked eye, and if posted here there'd be many eyes figuring out the numbers.

    More information on the Old Town Company can be found in Sue Audette's book, Old Town, Our First Hundred Years, which is available through the WCHA store and most booksellers, eBay, Amazon, and public libraries.

    We learn from each other in this space.... and we all get smarter about canoes together!

    Kathy
     
  13. Craig Johnson

    Craig Johnson Lifetime member

    similar fix

    My 1910 Old Town had a similar fix, in this case the seat bolts would have been countersunk and filled so when they added the sailing rig seat they would have been left with holes and just used home made rectangular bolt heads instead of plugging the holes again. I'm guessing you'll find damage under those big washers from spinning diamond head bolts
     

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  14. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks Craig

    Thanks Craig.
    I may go see it tomorrow to see what I find.
    Appreciate the help.
    Big Al
     
  15. Bob Holtzman

    Bob Holtzman Wannabe

    Galvanic Corrosion

    Al - if those plates are indeed aluminum, you might look out for galvanic corrosion between the two unlike metals (especially if the boat has ever been in salt water). Aluminum and bronze are pretty far apart on the galvanic series. Luckily, it's the aluminum, not the bronze, that would corrode, but even that might leave some unwanted detritus in the surrounding wood.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks Bob

    Thanks Bob. I'll take that into consideration when I view this canoe this weekend.
    Cheers,
    Big Al
     
  17. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Serial Number Digital Image

    I finally got a digital image of the above OT canoe.
    I read it as 100230.
    Let me know what shows up in the crystal ball.
    Thanks in Advance,
    Big Al
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Hi Al--

    This seems to fit!

    Old Town 100230 is a 16 foot AA (top) grade Otca model canoe finished December 1928--> April 1929. It has red Western cedar planking, open mahogany gunwales, mahogany decks/thwarts/seat frames, a keel, outside stems, and a floor rack. It was originally painted maroon and shipped to Macy's in NYC on April 12, 1929.

    The scan of this record is attached below-- click on it to get a larger image. This scan and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you and anyone else reading this will join or renew membership in the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.php to renew.

    It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.

    Kathy
     

    Attached Files:

  19. OP
    OP
    Al Newcomb

    Al Newcomb Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thank You, Thank You!!

    Thank You Kathy for the quick reply.
    On Sat I will drive 5 hrs to look at this one and the 1933 Yankee.
    I'll let you know what's under those metal plates.
    Cheers and Thanks Again,
    Big AL
     

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