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Filler and more filler.

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by Dave Wermuth, Nov 2, 2021.

  1. Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    Greetings. Filler is a question that seems to be a recurring topic. In my orbits at least. I've landed on latex fillers and have been happy with Sherwin Williams Pro Block. But supply chain issues are blamed for my local store's lack of product. So I asked them if there is a substitute or similar primer/sealer to pro block and they said Kilz. Kilz? Hmm. So I went down to big box and the shelves were full of kilz in three or four variations. I got the mildewcide version. Kilz 3. I'm trying it on a rowboat and it is looking good so far. I would not have guessed to try this stuff. But it's exterior primer/sealer and latex, and compatible with oil based paint, so.....

    Has anyone else used Kilz? Comments?

    Meanwhile, I'll be using the 'search' field.

    Dave.
     
  2. Rob Stevens

    Rob Stevens Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    I have used Zinser 1-2-3 high build primer. With added 404 fairing compound after the first coat. I don't understand how this is compatible with enamel paint, but it works.
     
    Dave Wermuth likes this.
  3. patrick corry

    patrick corry Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    Does such a product have an adequate content of silica to achieve the necessary "hardness" along with it's priming/sealing properties? I'm a rank amateur with only one canvas filling to my credit, and that was mixed for me by an experienced local restorer using enamel paint, silica powder, linseed oil, etc.
     
  4. OP
    OP
    Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    "Does such a product have an adequate content of silica" Patrick, yes, it does. And it has the consistency I like. So far I am happy with what I am seeing. For a final top coat I may mix in exterior latex lightweight spackle 50/50 and squeegee it smooth before sand and prime, etc.
     
  5. Douglas Kestell

    Douglas Kestell Lignum Linter Fanaticus

    Rob-

    The Zinsser 123 primer you reference. Is that the standard Zinsser 123 for all surfaces or is specifically a high build primer?

    I see Zinsser now sells a Peel Stop Triple Thick that looks interesting - and the tech data sheet says this stuff will stick to almost anything. I don’t know if it sandable or not.

    Id like to apply a couple coats, fair sand it and apply paint.

    It’s a 1915 OT Charles River that’s had a very hard life. I faired the hull as much as I felt comfortable on 100 year old bone dry wood. I used Kirby’s canvas filler, but would like to just fair it out a bit more before paint.

    By the way, I have a 1950’s Chesnut Ogilvy Y stern next up for canvas and am going to try the exterior latex primer + lightweight spackling/ primer filler mix suggested. I like the idea of not waiting 6weeks or more for the filler to dry.
     
  6. Rob Stevens

    Rob Stevens Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    This (with West Systems 404 fairing filler to thicken more for fewer coats), with bilingual label, 'cause this is Canada, eh?
     

    Attached Files:

    Douglas Kestell likes this.
  7. David Satter

    David Satter LOVES Wooden Canoes

    So these products have silica in them? I've been using traditional filler for years and I love it. Doesn't the silica add a hardness to it ? Otherwise it would just be a thickener. I could use any thickener / fairing compound but would it be as hard? That's why it's hard to sand. Maybe if it wasn't so hard to sand I wouldn't have had to have carpal tunnel surgery last month :(
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2022
  8. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    The primer/spackle mix is a top coat we use when filling with Ekofill. It would probably work as well with other fillers, but I don't think it would stand alone as the sole filler.
     
  9. Howie

    Howie Wooden Canoe Maniac

    Douglas: Did you ever use the Zinsser Peel Stop Triple Thick primer you mentioned above? How did you like it? I assume is was easy to sand...
     
  10. David Satter

    David Satter LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Is everyone looking for something faster to dry and easier to sand? I'm not opposed to trying new things. But while the filler is drying wouldn't you just start the next canoe. I think I'll wait a little longer before I try a new filler. Next thing you'll want me to get rid of my flip phone :)
     
  11. Douglas Kestell

    Douglas Kestell Lignum Linter Fanaticus

    Howie- I haven’t used it yet. I did use the Zinssers 1-2-3 as a primer over Kirby’s filler - 3 coats with sanding in between.

    I have a Chestnut Ogilvy that will be ready for canvas next. I’m really tempted to use a few coats of the Zinssers 1-2-3 into the weave of the new canvas and see what a few coats of this Peel Stop will do.
    I’m nervous about it’s sandability so I think I’ll squeegee it on.

    Ill report back to which way I decide to go
     
    Dave Wermuth likes this.
  12. Howie

    Howie Wooden Canoe Maniac

    I tried the Peel Stop stuff. Not a fan. First, it's so thick that it takes quite a while to stir properly. Then I found that the thicker areas hadn't dried even after 24 hours. The 1-2-3 stuff goes on thinner but dries much quicker so I was able to build thicker layers much quicker.
     
  13. Douglas Kestell

    Douglas Kestell Lignum Linter Fanaticus

    Howie-

    so you tried using just the primer instead of traditional filler?
     
  14. Howie

    Howie Wooden Canoe Maniac

    Douglas: Gosh, no. Would a primer fully penetrate the canvas fiber fully? And even if it did would it harden to the strength of our traditional fillers?

    My problem was that a small section of a canoe I had filled (with Kirby's) had been exposed to rain sometime during its 6 week curing period. This resulted in some vertical... cracks? in the thin layer just above the canvas in sections. I was afraid I would have to start over and a new canvas but instead I carefully sanded the area until I reached just before the canvas itself (happily the filler in the canvas itself looked to be in good shape). I tried reapplying filler in just these sanded areas to replace the material I had just sanded away, but I didn't like the result - I couldn't get the filler to apply thinly and evenly enough. Besides, I didn't like the prospect of having to wait for the new filler to cure nor the prospect of having so re-sand the new filler well enough so there's be no 'lumps'. So I cleaned off the newly applied filler with mineral spirits and started looking for 'thick' a primer. My thinking was that the primer would be easy to sand away, so with multiple primer layers I could replace the material I sanded away. I looked for some primers recommended in WCHA Threads, but the ones I tried to buy were out of stock. Then I remembered I had some Zinssers 1-2-3 in the basement. It went on thin, so I ordered the Peel -Stop stuff. Yuk. So I finished the job with the 1-2-3 I had on hand. I'm happy - I seems to have worked well.
     
  15. Ron Hill

    Ron Hill New Member

    Is anyone using Robson RT-10? Was thinking of ordering some but it’s $48 and $49 for shipping. $63 for shipping if you order 2 gal. Is the primer with filler a better, less expensive option?
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    I think I get about a gal of filler with mildewcide for around $50.
     
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  17. David Satter

    David Satter LOVES Wooden Canoes

    I make my own traditional filler. If I crunch the numbers/supplies it come out to $28 a gallon :)
     
    Ron Hill likes this.
  18. Ron Hill

    Ron Hill New Member

    Is there a recommendation on what type of spackle is best? From what I have read I’m going to try using Kilz primer and spackle. I need to do a bow patch/repair to the canvas to see if it will hold for remainder of season. Rest of canvas is is good shape
     
  19. OP
    OP
    Dave Wermuth

    Dave Wermuth Who hid my paddle?

    Ron, I recently used Kilz as a filler. Not much time to report on it but so far, so good. I typically use Sherwin/Williams ProBlock exterior sealer/primer. I use a lightweight interior/exterior spackle. The regular spackle seems heavy in comparison. I mix in mildewcide.
     
    Ron Hill likes this.
  20. ModSean

    ModSean New Member

    This is really interesting, I'm looking at recanvasing soon and thought I was going to have to get paint shipped to me, or try and mix it myself. Never thought I could just go down to the Sherwin/Williams or Home Depot. But then something else occurred to me, I like many other artists have been using acrylic latex gesso to seal & fill our canvases for decades. I wonder if this might work for canoes?
    Acrylic gesso already contains silica as well as a calcium carbonate (marble dust), it sands well, it has good penetration into the canvas fiber (though sometimes it can soak through the canvas and will show on the backing support), it takes oil paint well, and it has a good deal of flexibility once dry. I have stretched, unstretched, rolled, and restretched canvases without cracking or other issues.
    I don't know if these would be desirable properties in a canoe filler but if you guys think it would be, I'd be interested to try.
    I generally use Golden Gesso (great) for my paintings, though I have also used Speedball (very good but slightly thinner) and Art Alternatives (thin and not as good).
     
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