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Canvas wrinkles

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by Howie, Jul 25, 2020.

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  1. Howie

    Howie Wooden Canoe Maniac

    Seems like this is the subject I write most about... I mudded an Otca over 7 weeks ago. Yesterday I took it from under the deck & tarp where it went to dry and into the garage. The canvas looked great, but I noticed some of the 1/4" staples I had used had pulled out. I had just gotten some 5/16" staples so replaced all the old staples, retightening as needed (I don't think any tightening was needed to be honest). I sanded the canvas down to remove the high points and hosed it down to clean the dust off and left it to dry. The canvas still looked great. This morning the canoe was completely dry - and still looked great. So slapped on a marine topside primer (a Totalboat product). This took maybe 20 minutes with a roller. By the time I was done I had wrinkles all over the canvas.

    I suspect/hope these wrinkles will disappear as the canvas dries - I'll post a comment tomorrow.

    What I'm curious about is why the wrinkles appeared. Clearly the canvas is expanding due to the paint. I assume it's the solvents in the primer that cause the canvas to expand. But is this a surface affect? or are the solvents getting inside the canvas & mud and causing it to swell? I would think the dried mud would be impervious to solvents by now!

    In any case... any opinions out there?
     
  2. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Could be humidity. I’ve had issues with that causing wrinkles.
    Could be the primer. I tried Total Boat primer. It takes a long time to dry so that sand paper doesn’t load. The 4” foam roller I used went all misshapen and grew in size. As I recall thinner and mineral spirits did not cut it and I needed xylene to clean up and thin with. If it is xylene based primer, it could soften paints and plastics based on a quick look on the Internet.
    I’ve been using Pettit EzPrime with good results.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Howie

    Howie Wooden Canoe Maniac

    For what it's worth, those wrinkles disappeared as soon as the primer was dry - maybe 3 hours.

    Dave: I buy the cheapest 1/8" foam rollers I can find (like under $2) and just throw them away after one use. And I found the Totalboat primer sands really well when you wet the surface. Sand dry and the paper will load up in a few seconds. So I do it out on the driveway - sander in one hand, hose in the other. I can easily get through with a quarter sheet per side.
     
  4. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Good point Howie.
    I don’t wet sand anymore.
    I will say that Total Boat primer does well for build up/fairing.
    I use the throw away rollers too.
     
  5. MGC

    MGC Scrapmaker

    I have been wondering about that. How does it compare to the Pettit EZ primer?
    WRT dry sanding, I find that if I start sanding as soon as the primer seems dry enough to sand that the paper (100/120 grit) loads up almost immediately. If I wait a couple days it does not load up at all.
     
  6. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    I wait 2 days to dry sand Petitt EzPrime. Otherwise it loads the dry paper on a RO sander.
    EzPrime does a good job of buildup, sands easily after 2 days, and fills low spots nicely. I usually use 3 coats, with sanding in between.
    Howie wet sands Total Boat and has good luck doing that.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    Howie

    Howie Wooden Canoe Maniac

    So you guys use multiple primer coats to fill in dips & valleys... Ok, I'll try it. I bought a gallon of the stuff knowing that I'd be refinishing 3 or 4 or 5 canoes this year. I put one primer coat on an Otca on Friday. I'll sand it down & put 2 more on to see what happens. And yes, sanding wet is the way to go with this stuff, at least for me.
     
  8. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Howie,
    I use 3 coats, but most of it gets sanded off.
    It does help to fill in the pits and divots left from filler. I aspire to get an automotive like finish, but I’ll never get there. The more I coat and sand, the closer I get to it.
    Dave
     
  9. MGC

    MGC Scrapmaker

    Dave, which Total Boat Primer have you used? The TotalProtect is the only one that is a high build...so equivalent to the Pettit? Is that the one? It looks pricey...$39.99 for a quart. I just bought the Pettit for $29.99...
    Howie, yes to using the primer to smooth things out a bit...Dave is using three coats, I typically use two. Put it on, sand it off, put more on, sand more off...you can never do enough sanding. If we ever added up the hours of sanding we have done we might find other ways to spend our time.
     
    Brian J Knudsen likes this.
  10. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Mike,
    I looked online for what I used. It is Total Boat Topside Primer. Total Protect is an epoxy product. Haven’t used it.
    I bought it when it first came out. I found it was hard to spread and set up quickly.
    Jamestown reviews are overall pretty good, but I looked at some of the low reviews and they mirrored my experience.
     
    MGC likes this.
  11. shelldrake

    shelldrake LOVES Wooden Canoes

    I've been using Interlux Pre Coat as a filling primer. Works well, but is fairly hard sanding.

    Prepping the filler for paint is my least favorite task. I'm a stickler for a blemish-free finish and the fine line between too little and too much filler sanding is a frustration. I've been building an Atkinson Traveler and thought that because the new hull was fair, the filler sanding process would be a breeze. Not so. Those damn little depressions after sanding can take a lot of primer before sanding smooth. I had planned a shellac bottom, but of course could not use primer under the shellac. The depressions showed up like beacons under the shiny shellac, so I sanded it all off and painted the bottom. I'm finally past that unpleasant step, have the outwales installed and doing the final painting/varnishing.

    It's been a satisfying project and keeping me busy during the Covid mess.

    Howie. I noted that you're using 1/4" staples. I'm not surprised some of them pulled out. I use 1/2" and would use 9/16" if they were available in stainless any more. I have no idea why you got wrinkles. Seems like humidity shouldn't affect the canvas tension after it has been filled and cured.
     
  12. Andre Cloutier

    Andre Cloutier Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.

    I've been using Interlux Pre Coat as a filling primer. Works well, but is fairly hard sanding.

    I can confirm that, i stopped using it and went to Epifanes Multi Marine Primer ( for the really good restorations, for all the rest there is still good old hardware store primer)
     
  13. shelldrake

    shelldrake LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Is the Epifanes primer a "high build" type Andre? How many coats do you need to sand off to fill the divots?
     
  14. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Howie
    I use 1/2” stainless staples. They don’t pull out.
    I used to use 9/16 monel, but they are expensive.
     
  15. Dan Lindberg

    Dan Lindberg Ex Wood Hoarder

    Seems like if you want an auto level finish, you should use auto methods.
    And aren't the hi-end paint jobs multiple coats of color topped by clear and then sanded/buffed to a mirror finish, using very expensive materials?

     
  16. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Yes you are correct Lindy.
    I probably overstated my expectations, however like Sheldrake, I’m a stickler for an imperfection free finish.

    Early on in my restoration experience I did have a body shop friend paint a canoe for me. Looked fantastic!
    Like a brand new fire truck! Then it checked real bad in about 3-4 years.
     
  17. johnmetts

    johnmetts Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    Can anyone advise? Once a canoe is painted (green) can I go back and add one of these high build primers? I'm not satisfied with how the painted surface looks (a little gritty) I assume I would have to sand the painted surface to create adhesion. Ideas? Thanks!
    John
     
  18. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    I’m not sure about primer over paint, even with sanding.
    I just keep sanding and painting until it looks good to me.
    I sand until I see filler, then back off.
     
  19. shelldrake

    shelldrake LOVES Wooden Canoes

    John,

    Just make sure that you sand until the only paint color left resides in the low spots. If you don't remove the paint from the high spots, the depressions never go away.

    I struggle with the subject of "how much to sand the filler?". Getting it smooth enough so that lots of primer coats are unnecessary is a tricky proposition. Not enough filler sanding and you're left with deep craters to fill, and too much sanding and you have to deal with spots where the weave gets exposed. I have and E.M. White built by Jerry Stelmok about 16 years ago. At the time, he was experimenting with auto body filler. Where the paint has chipped in a couple of places, you can see a red colored undercoat. Talking with him recently, he mentioned he is using Interlux Pre Coat primer now. I wonder about using a heavier-than-primer fairing compound of some sort for the first step after sanding the filler to fill depressions......
     
  20. johnmetts

    johnmetts Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks, Dave and Shelldrake for the advice. I'm thinking maybe this winter I will do a little sanding and priming. Having too much fun paddling this summer.
     
    Shari Gnolek likes this.

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