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Another Old Town Canoe Design number four question

Discussion in 'Research and History' started by Benson Gray, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    My ongoing research about the Old Town Canoe Design number four has uncovered another interesting wrinkle. It appears that the entire design may have been scaled to match the length of the canoe. For example, I have a 16 foot long Yankee with what appears to be an original design number four and the blue triangles are about two inches high as shown below. Rollin Thurlow has an old canvas with the same design that appears to be original and from a longer canoe. It has triangles that are 2.75 inches high.

    Does anyone else have access to an Old Town canoe with an original design number four that they can measure the height of the blue triangles and post the results here. It would also be helpful if you could include the serial number, length, and a picture. Thanks,

    Benson
     

    Attached Files:

  2. OP
    OP
    Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    I understand why the triangles are different sizes in the side along the rail to accomodate different lengths but it was a surprise to find that the height or the triangle perpendicular to the rail was also changed. Please post or send me the length and height of your plastic triangles. I have also noticed the different shades of blue. Thanks for the follow up,

    Benson
     
  3. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    Hi Benson,

    It seems less surprising to me that the height of triangles changed than that the entire design was scaled. Scaling the design means that a shorter canoe (but same number of triangles) with the same freeboard will have smaller triangles. A larger canoe would have larger triangles, which would occupy more of the hull side space; thus the design would look heavier. If they chose to keep the triangle height the same from model to model, then the height of the design would remain constant but the shape of the triangles would change. On a longer canoe, the point angles would be more obtuse, while on a shorter canoe, they would be more acute. This would significantly alter the appearance of the design (see attached photos)- more so than simply having larger triangles.

    An easy way to make similar pattern from canoe to canoe would be to divide the rail length by the number fo triangles, mark triangle junctions at rail lines, and then use a larger angle pattern capable of laying out triangles of any overall size but keeping triangle proportions identical from canoe to canoe.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. OP
    OP
    Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    The information below should help anyone who wants to recreate a design number four based on what appears to be an original example on the 16 foot long Yankee model from 1936 that is in my garage. There are 35 large red and blue triangles along the gunwales which are roughly five and three eights inches wide and two inches high. The small blue triangles in between them are about one and three quarter inches wide and five eighths of an inch tall. There are six red and blue triangles along the stems which are five inches wide (measuring along the curve of the stem) by two inches tall (measured perpendicular to the stem). The very small blue triangles in between them along the stem are five eighths of an inch wide and three eighths of an inch tall. The blue diamonds between the red triangles at the end of the stems and the gunwales are two and a half inches tall and three quarters of an inch wide. The maximum dimensions of the long straight lines of the stars on both sides of the bow are six and five eighths inches from the end of the red point on one side to the end of the blue point on the opposite side. The large inner white boxes formed by the red and blue triangles are two and three quarter inches on a side. The next smaller blue outline square is two inches on a side and the lines are one eighth of an inch thick. The smallest solid blue square in the middle is five eighths of an inch long on each side. Good luck and reply here if you have questions or want anything else. Thanks,

    Benson
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Fitz

    Fitz Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    Design 4

    I have some pictures of a Design 4. I was surprised to see the pattern carried over the stem band. I don't think this was someone touching the paint up either.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Randy Johnson

    Randy Johnson Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Old Town Design #4 dimensions

    Dear Benson,
    I have (2) 17' OTCA's with original Design #4. Serial Numbers: 174300 (1965), and #179325 (1968). While this is a very limited time frame for comparison, here is what I have found: Both of these canoes have 29 Red and Blue large triangles bordering the gunwale on each side. This does not include the stem triangles which number 5 on each side of the stem. Each gunwale triangle measures 6 3/4" long, and 2 3/4" in vertical height. The small blue triangles which are in between the large ones mentioned are 3 1/2" long, 1 1/2" tall, and are 1" away from the edges of the large triangles. All large triangles (red and blue) touch ends, and the triangles are spaced evenly from one end of the canoe to the other where the gunwale meets the stem. The stem triangles are slightly smaller, and they wrap around the bang strip. These large triangles measure 5 1/4" long against the bang strip, and are 2 1/2" high. The small blue triangles inside the stem triangles measure 1 1/4" x 3/4" and also are 1" away from the edges of the Red and Blue triangles. The diamond on the end of the canoe where the gunwale meets the stem is 2 1/2" long vertically, and is 3/4" wide. The "eight pointed star" is 7 1/2" square, and is positioned square with the water line. My 1968 OTCA's canvas still shows the original pencil layout marks where the paint lines were followed. I am very sure that this is it's original canvas since the canoe was used very little, and every other sign of canvas workmanship, user abuse, and original owner story verifies this fact. By the way, the pencil mark layout for the triangles are not exactly the same length dimensions unto themselves. They do vary about 1/8" to 1/4" every now and then at random places along the canoe. I ran up to see Ralph Freese at Chicagoland Canoe Base and bought a copy of his Design #4 plan that he had taken off an 18' OTCA years ago. That canoe had large triangles which were 6" long and 2 1/4" tall. Ralph had counted 45 triangles per side(?) with 9 smaller triangles on each stem side which measured continually smaller as they followed the stem length to the bottom of the canoe. The canoe was no longer in his possession so I was limited to his plan, but all other dimensions for the diamond and the eight pointed star were identical to my 17' canoes.
    I hope that this information helps some, and if I can ever figure out how to post pictures, I will include them also.
    Thanks again for all your help and information along the way in this hobby that I have enjoyed for 40 some odd years!
     

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