woodenkayakguy
LOVES Wooden Canoes
this is posted on a uk canoe forum http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm
any ideas?
any ideas?
can anyone identify this boat
- Thread starter woodenkayakguy
- Start date
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
This is an odd one- very pretty, but I just can't find anything like it in my files. Looks like a European canoe, but it doesn't look like the regular work of the more well-known French makers (Rocca, Seyler, Chauvier, Lawrence, etc.). I wonder if it's from elsewhere, like possible England, Germany or Scandinavia? It's very pretty and has some nice details, but...??? Some of the detail is truly above and beyond, like the beading on the stringers and keelson... and the keelson is hidden under the floorboards! The decks appear to be plywood, which doesn't fit with the beauty of the rest of the canoe. I'd bet they were replaced, perhaps at the time the one hull patch was made in the bottom. alongside the keelson.
Michael
Michael
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Neil Greenfield
Curious about Wooden Canoes
hi
many thanks for the posting..
the canoe patch on the bottom seems much much newer than the decks.. these are well fitted, although very dry and rotten..
im looking for some advice on sail rig type, restoration, ie, epsoseal/varnish or fibre sheath..
any help would me very much appricated
thank you
neil
many thanks for the posting..
the canoe patch on the bottom seems much much newer than the decks.. these are well fitted, although very dry and rotten..
im looking for some advice on sail rig type, restoration, ie, epsoseal/varnish or fibre sheath..
any help would me very much appricated
thank you
neil
john hupfield
fire starter/wood burner
Tricky due to its age. I'd guess 1890s based on the classic English type construction used by Ditchburn in Muskoka around that time.
As the decks are replaced you would need to look for signs that the deck was originally the same or altered. The knees may be stiffening for a dual leeboard arrangement. Most sailors at that time used lateen or what Americans call Leg of Mutton (that is 2 sail types). You would need to research leeboards. Not epoxy coating and not sheathing except as a last resort.
If sheathed then in such a fashion that removal would not cause avoidable damage to the hull.
Would be lovely to see on the water.
John
As the decks are replaced you would need to look for signs that the deck was originally the same or altered. The knees may be stiffening for a dual leeboard arrangement. Most sailors at that time used lateen or what Americans call Leg of Mutton (that is 2 sail types). You would need to research leeboards. Not epoxy coating and not sheathing except as a last resort.
If sheathed then in such a fashion that removal would not cause avoidable damage to the hull.
Would be lovely to see on the water.
John
John Summers
Canoe Sailor
Canoe by a boatbuilder?
Some thoughts after looking at Neil's photos:
The boat was probably built in the UK in the first quarter of the 20th century by a boatbuilder (as distinct from a canoe builder) who had in front of him, or was familiar with, “Canadian” canoes.
• Several of the features of the boat, in particular the lack of an inwale and the wide, tapered outwale, are typical of canoes from the Peterborough, Ontario area, and would have been seen on many of the canoes exported from here around the world. The centre thwart is also in the style of Peterborough-area canoes, with the rebated end pieces to attach it to the hull, but is very heavy and clumsy in its execution relative to what would be seen on a canoe. The same is true of the keel and longitudinal stringers.
• The way these details are rendered, though, suggests that someone not familiar with that style of construction was copying what they saw in front of them.
• The same is true of the boat’s profile—a classic canoe bow, with a strongly re-curving shape, married up to a rowing skiff stern. This combination is not a Canadian feature.
• In the same way, there are a number of boatbuilder-style details, such as the heavy transverse floor timbers and the sawn frame near the stern, not often seen on canoes, which suggest a local origin with a canoe influence.
• The striped floorboards have a very “upper Thames” look to them. A builder like Peter Freebody in Hurley [see: http://www.peterfreebody.com/] who is familiar with that type of pleasure craft might have some ideas.
• As it appears to have no means of lateral plane, the boat is only notionally a sailing canoe, and would have had, at best, a very small rig. The mast partner and thwart may also be after-market additions not present when the boat was built. The boat is missing an upper gudgeon, and the rudder may have been married to this canoe from another boat, since it does not match well in terms of scantling, construction, finish or hardware.
• As regards restoration, the boat appears from the photo to have butt-joined thin planks, so waterproofing the seams would be an issue. There are also a number of splits in the planking. There is also at least one very unsympathetic modern repair near the keel that should be removed and re-done. There is major rot in the after deck. These factors might make it a good candidate for a cosmetic, i.e., non-working, restoration. A restoration to operating condition would necessitate some pretty drastic intervention and replacement of existing material.
Sort of a Platypus, I'd say.
Some thoughts after looking at Neil's photos:
The boat was probably built in the UK in the first quarter of the 20th century by a boatbuilder (as distinct from a canoe builder) who had in front of him, or was familiar with, “Canadian” canoes.
• Several of the features of the boat, in particular the lack of an inwale and the wide, tapered outwale, are typical of canoes from the Peterborough, Ontario area, and would have been seen on many of the canoes exported from here around the world. The centre thwart is also in the style of Peterborough-area canoes, with the rebated end pieces to attach it to the hull, but is very heavy and clumsy in its execution relative to what would be seen on a canoe. The same is true of the keel and longitudinal stringers.
• The way these details are rendered, though, suggests that someone not familiar with that style of construction was copying what they saw in front of them.
• The same is true of the boat’s profile—a classic canoe bow, with a strongly re-curving shape, married up to a rowing skiff stern. This combination is not a Canadian feature.
• In the same way, there are a number of boatbuilder-style details, such as the heavy transverse floor timbers and the sawn frame near the stern, not often seen on canoes, which suggest a local origin with a canoe influence.
• The striped floorboards have a very “upper Thames” look to them. A builder like Peter Freebody in Hurley [see: http://www.peterfreebody.com/] who is familiar with that type of pleasure craft might have some ideas.
• As it appears to have no means of lateral plane, the boat is only notionally a sailing canoe, and would have had, at best, a very small rig. The mast partner and thwart may also be after-market additions not present when the boat was built. The boat is missing an upper gudgeon, and the rudder may have been married to this canoe from another boat, since it does not match well in terms of scantling, construction, finish or hardware.
• As regards restoration, the boat appears from the photo to have butt-joined thin planks, so waterproofing the seams would be an issue. There are also a number of splits in the planking. There is also at least one very unsympathetic modern repair near the keel that should be removed and re-done. There is major rot in the after deck. These factors might make it a good candidate for a cosmetic, i.e., non-working, restoration. A restoration to operating condition would necessitate some pretty drastic intervention and replacement of existing material.
Sort of a Platypus, I'd say.
john hupfield
fire starter/wood burner
Very concise John. Platypus is well stated. Being on dial-up I fell asleep while downloading and never saw all of the pictures. Could it be canvased and crewed with 20 or so elves and munchkins thus allowing at least one good cruise for the history books? The referal you chose is excellent.
John
John
John Summers
Canoe Sailor
But interesting for all that. . .
From a museum/artifact point of view, actually a very interesting boat. The Antique Boat Museum has an example of a canoe built by a St. Lawrence skiff builder. The Adirondack Museum has examples of guideboats built by canoe builders and canoes built by guideboat builders.
In each of these cases, while the boat isn't a prime example of its species, it's a fascinating cross-over/hybrid [to borrow two words back from the auto industry]. It also demonstrates how the habits of mind and hand that make up boatbuilding traditions, and spread them around the world, are hard to shake--the builder of this boat obviously knew what he was about, in terms of creating a hull, but couldn't shake a lifetime of rowing craft building when he went about building a canoe.
J
From a museum/artifact point of view, actually a very interesting boat. The Antique Boat Museum has an example of a canoe built by a St. Lawrence skiff builder. The Adirondack Museum has examples of guideboats built by canoe builders and canoes built by guideboat builders.
In each of these cases, while the boat isn't a prime example of its species, it's a fascinating cross-over/hybrid [to borrow two words back from the auto industry]. It also demonstrates how the habits of mind and hand that make up boatbuilding traditions, and spread them around the world, are hard to shake--the builder of this boat obviously knew what he was about, in terms of creating a hull, but couldn't shake a lifetime of rowing craft building when he went about building a canoe.
J
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
Welcome Mr Summers
I fear we may now have achieved acolyte status...
I fear we may now have achieved acolyte status...
Neil Greenfield
Curious about Wooden Canoes
Identification update
its taken a whikle, had other stuff on.. but she is looking much better.. not so sure about the colour match on the repair!!!
http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm
you can see the true construction now.
its taken a whikle, had other stuff on.. but she is looking much better.. not so sure about the colour match on the repair!!!
http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm
you can see the true construction now.
Neil Greenfield
Curious about Wooden Canoes
Identification update
From a museum/artifact point of view, actually a very interesting boat. The Antique Boat Museum has an example of a canoe built by a St. Lawrence skiff builder.
ive been looking on the Antique Boat Museum's website...and have noticed the green water line paint.. i found the same coloured paint, under layers and layers of varnish and wood stain...
From a museum/artifact point of view, actually a very interesting boat. The Antique Boat Museum has an example of a canoe built by a St. Lawrence skiff builder.
ive been looking on the Antique Boat Museum's website...and have noticed the green water line paint.. i found the same coloured paint, under layers and layers of varnish and wood stain...
Neil Greenfield
Curious about Wooden Canoes
ive been looking on the Antique Boat Museum's website...and have noticed the green water line paint.. i found the same coloured paint, under layers and layers of varnish and wood stain...
I've run into a Thames River Boat a few times. Has a similar stem design and a black steel stem band. Survived a bombing in wwII and I think he said it was built around 1880. Not saying it was the same builder but same era maybe.
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=4939
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=4939
Attachments
Neil Greenfield
Curious about Wooden Canoes
idenification
hi, the stem does look similar, but teh stern is much more similar to a henley river skiff.
i will post up some more internal shots, you will be able to see the construction more.
neil
hi, the stem does look similar, but teh stern is much more similar to a henley river skiff.
i will post up some more internal shots, you will be able to see the construction more.
neil
Neil Greenfield
Curious about Wooden Canoes
pictures
hi
ive posted some beofre pictures of the inside.
neil
http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm
hi
ive posted some beofre pictures of the inside.
neil
http://www.riverthamescharters.co.uk/canoeproject.htm
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